Episode #075: Intentional Profitability with Prerna and Mayank Malik: Beyond Revenue Goals
Intentional Profitability with Prerna and Mayank Malik: Beyond Revenue Goals
In today’s episode, we dive into the nitty-gritty of ‘Intentional Profitability’ — a mantra the Maliks live by.
This power couple goes deep on how past trials, including battles with health and financial tribulations, have shaped their approach to business.
With clarity and conviction, they share how starting with modest pricing and growing in alignment with client needs has been their key to success — a refreshing approach in a world that often pushes for high-ticket sales at the onset.
When you tune into this week's episode you're going to hear...
The importance of "intentional profitability" and building a business that serves your life, not arbitrary goals.
How to price your services based on your experience, and proof of concept - not just going with what "feels good".
How to package services correctly to avoid blurring of responsibilities and scope creep!
Tune in now to get intentionally profitable!
Links Mentioned
Full Transcript:
Zach Spuckler:
This is Not Your Average online marketing podcast, episode number 75. And in this episode, we're talking to Perna and Mayank Malik, the masterminds behind Content Bistro. They're a husband and wife team that have revolutionized how they offer their high end services, and this is an episode you don't wanna miss. If you offer services for your business, have thoughts about transparent pricing versus sales calls only pricing, or just wanna go behind the scenes of a really successful duo, you'll wanna stay tuned. Hey. Hey. Hey. Zach Spuckler here, and I am so excited for this week's episode.
Zach Spuckler:
Now the last couple weeks, we've had some guests on the show, and I wanted to start this episode by telling you, like, I don't take guests lightly. We get a lot of requests to have guests on the show, but when reached out to me, about having her and her husband on the show, I was like, there's no way I can't because we've kind of swirled in the same ecosystem, of the online marketing world for quite a while, and they have such a thoughtful business model that I love. They help people with their newsletter, their coaching and mentorship program, and they even have services. And I love that because it's very similar to the business model that I have, with some nuances and some of the unique ways that they do it. But what I really, really love about it is that we're gonna talk a lot on this episode about what they call intentional profitability. And so if you've been in the online world and you've always been like, oh, I need to, you know, make $1,000,000, or I need to hit this certain revenue number. Today, we're gonna step back, and we're gonna ask you to pause and say, why is that? Right? What are you actually trying to achieve? What's the intention behind your profitability? And I don't wanna give too too much away because it's it's a really great episode. So without further ado, let's get into the interview.
Zach Spuckler:
So hey there, and welcome to the Not Your Average online marketing podcast. I'm so excited to have you guys.
Prerna Malik:
Thank you so much for inviting us. We are really looking forward to sitting down and chatting with you.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. Well, this is gonna be really fun because we're gonna touch on a couple different topics, but you, have both been in, like we were just saying before we started, like, the the bubble that is it's a certain online market. Like, our bubbles keep touching. And so I was really excited when you guys reached out to me on the show, because you guys are, like, copy connoisseurs. Like, I know you've been behind the scenes on some really cool launches and promotions and and funnels. And so I won't spoil too much. I'll let you do that. Can you just tell our audience a little bit about who you guys are, what you have been working on? Like, may you know, anything you wanna share just to, like, set the stage.
Prerna Malik:
Sure. Thank you. So, both of us, we run Content Bistro. We've been in business since 2011. We are a 2 person business, and we work we do have a team of contractors that we work with on a project by project basis. We essentially work with course creators, creative entrepreneurs, membership site owners on both the on evergreen funnels and live launches as well as business foundations and building a more intentionally profitable business. So that's us in a nutshell.
Zach Spuckler:
I love that. And I was really excited, when you had said, like, intentional profit. Can you just touch on that briefly of, like, what what does intentional profit look like for you? Because for us, like, we have made some massive shifts over the last maybe two and a half, 3 years. We're, like, we're focused on 1 or 2 projects. We have very select number of clients, like, you know, and we become really intentional that, like, at least for us and maybe this will be something you can touch on too. Like, it's not always about, like, oh, how do I hit 7 figures? It's like, how am I intentionally building that business that serves, you know, my lifestyle, where I wanna travel, how I wanna live, you know, that kind of thing.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. Absolutely. So intentional profitability, Zach, has been a part of our business. I would say, our business value system, our business philosophy from the very beginning. For us, it was very important for us to be intentional and profitable. So just to give you some background, we started our business, like I said, in 2011, which is, yeah, I mean, over a decade ago. And when we started our business, what had happened before that was that Mayank had gotten really sick, and he was, you know, he was on bed rest for almost a year over a year, I think. And, we ended up using up all of our savings for medical expenses, and, of course, our daughter was a toddler at that time.
Prerna Malik:
She's turning 16 in March now. And what happened was that when we decided to start this business, we knew that, a, we did not have money to burn. And, b, we needed to be very intentional about the time we were spending in the business, about the work that we were doing because, again, chronic illness, you know, a toddler at home, just the 2 of us. And so for us, intentional profitability, we did not know we didn't we weren't calling it at that, this at that time, but this was what was kind of guiding us. We needed to be very intentional with how we're, you know, with the projects we're taking on, with the clients we're working with, with the kind of time they're spending, and, you know, and, of course, how are we charging? How much are we spending? Because it's very easy, and you would know this. It's very easy to get sucked into, oh, I need to join this mastermind, or I need to, you know, go here for these events, or I need to invest in, you know, big shiny branding because, well, that's what everyone is doing. Right? So for us, in fact, when we started, like, you're one of our business. Our 1st website was built pro bono by a former boss, of, you know, and he he had an ad agency.
Prerna Malik:
And I called him up, and I said that we're going to be starting this business, but we and we need a website. And, but we because, like I said, we did not have any money to spend on, you know, on, like, a fancy website or even, like, a template or things like that. The only money we spent was hosting. We paid Bluehost, I think, for the year. I think that was, like, a 100, 150 odd dollars, something like that.
Mayank Malik:
Something like that.
Prerna Malik:
That was what we had, and that's how we started. So for us, it was very important to be very intentional about how and where we invested our time and money, and that kind of then evolved into intentional profitability as a way of running our business.
Mayank Malik:
I think it's also what what really excited us about starting a business back in 2011. So I I think we are pretty clear that we never really wanted a capital intensive business. So setting up a factory or doing something like that never really excited us. So profitability for us was extremely important because we wanna build back, the corpus that that we would later have for our family, for our daughter's education, retirement, and all other financial goals. Because like Prerna said, we'd exhausted everything. So so that was one key focus area. The other thing was that we were in corporate jobs. Mhmm.
Mayank Malik:
We were really happy with our jobs, but we were doing crazy hours. So work life balance was another thing that we were extremely, keen to focus on. So so that is how those were really the 2 cornerstones on which, intentional profitability came about.
Zach Spuckler:
I love that because a lot of people, they really just, like, shoot for the number. And I think you said it so well, pertinent, is like feel like, oh, I've gotta join that mastermind. I've gotta go to this event. And I know I personally fall into that trap, looked back at my my books for the year. I've been like, we spent that much on courses and travel, and you're like, oh, man. I could've just put that in my pocket or, you know, now that I've, like you know, when I started my business, I was I was 22. Now I'm in I'm 30, which, you know, still young young ish, but young at heart. But, you know, now I'm thinking about retirement more, and it's like, wow.
Zach Spuckler:
I I wish I had to put that in my retirement. I wish I, like, I went to that event that was a total dud. I could have put that in my savings, or I could have purchased something that would have served the business better. And I just love this idea that you guys are really going into this with like, it's not about the revenue, though. We'll we'll talk about that, and I know that that's important and it's but it's about this profitability that serves a lifestyle. And I'm such an advocate of that. That's why we, in our business, like, we got rid of our coaching program after we built our membership to a certain level. Right? And I think people look at that, and they're like, oh, well, you got rid of your coaching program, so I should go all in on a membership.
Zach Spuckler:
And Yep. We see people do that all the time. And so I I know that you guys have, excuse me, I know that you have kind of a I don't wanna say, like, a process or a system, but maybe that's the best word I can come up with, where you guys have been able to scale. And so one of the things that I found so fascinating, I was so excited to interview you about, is you are highly service based. Now you I think you have a course, or you do have a course. I don't think. I know. I did some research.
Zach Spuckler:
I know you have a course. But really a a big part from what I understand is, like, service based. So I would love for you to talk a little bit about how do you kind of build this business, maybe with limited resources or even where you are now where it's highly, client oriented, not, student or customer, but you're still, like, living this work life balance? Because that that is fascinating to me. So I'd love to just hear about that.
Prerna Malik:
Sure. So for us right from the very start, we did a lot we offered a lot of packaged services. So initially, they weren't as such. They were more, you know, like, retainers. So, again, to give you some background, when we started in 2011, we started as a social media management and business blogging agency. The reason for that is because prior to that, like, 2008 is when I started blogging. So, yeah, I know. You're saying you're 30.
Prerna Malik:
I'm like, we are both in our like, we're mid forties. So we ancient. But so I'd started blogging. I had a mom blog in 2008. Right? And that blog kind of is what led to us thinking about when it was time when mine was getting better and it was time for him to go back to corporate, you know, he was like, okay. You've been doing this part time. You have, like, a few, you know, guest blogging and even blogging clients. So do you think we could take this, like, full time? He was the one who really kind of wanted to have a business.
Prerna Malik:
I honestly wasn't. Like, I was always very, very fond of the, quote, unquote, the security of the corporate paycheck. Had but when we decided, we will so we started with business blogging and social media. Right? And initially, it was more retainer based. So, you know, if you we pitch a client, like, there for a few months. You do social media management. You do a few blogs and you know? But then, say, 3 months, 6 months down the line, the client's like, okay. You know, I need to do something else.
Prerna Malik:
I need to invest in something else, and your retainer is kind of gone, and then you're like, it just kind of starts all over again. So I think your 2 of our business or your 3 of our business is when we started offering packages instead, which became a lot easier for us because retainer clients again, you know, boundaries get blurred very quickly, very easily. So, you know, it could it you know, we found that we were working more hours. Was, of course, the start of our business, so we knew we needed to put in the hard yards. But we also mindful of the fact that we don't wanna, you know, get to just kind of be working all the time and things like that. So year 2, year 3 onwards is when we started offering packages to our clients, which were very easy to sell, very easy to deliver. Clients, they used to love them because they knew exactly what they're getting. They did not have the blurriness of a retainer.
Prerna Malik:
And, it also, at the same time, allowed us to work with multiple clients, without getting burned out. So, you know, we had, like, a package called grab and go, which was essentially, you know, social media content done for you for 30 days, but delivered to you at the start of the month. So then all you need to do was just go ahead and either give it to your VA to upload or do it yourself. You know? It was totally so we had people, like, signing up. Okay. Sign me up for 6 months of grab and go. Sign up. Sign me up for you on your grab and go.
Prerna Malik:
That was really cool and really helped us to kind of, you know, create, a more scalable version of social media management without actually doing the management part of it. So when we pivoted into copywriting, it was only natural that we would do that. We would, you know, replicate what was working. So with even with copywriting, we started offering packages, which was great because, again, it ensured that, a, we were working with clients in a deeper, more integrated capacity. We were able to bring more of us to the table, help them really with, you know, launches in a more holistic way and not just like, oh, I'm on a sales page.
Mayank Malik:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Prerna Malik:
Right. But, honestly, you and I both know a sales page is just one part of whether a a live launch or an evergreen funnel. How about we give you something where you get your opt in page and thank you page. You get your sales page and thank you page. You get your pre webinar emails. You get your post webinar emails. You get your post sales emails. You even get some social content to promote your launch, and you get your you know, maybe if you wanna add on a few blog posts, if your launch is ever if your funnel's evergreen.
Prerna Malik:
So that kind of led to our 1st, which was like a big copy package, which has since, you know, been we've been it it's been replicated by a lot of our fellow copywriters. We're really happy about that. And, also, yeah, it's something that really put us on the map was our fully loaded launch copy package, which is like a really holistic package that gave clients everything they could possibly need for their launches. Packages were key for us when it came to looking at our time, looking at our capacity, looking at, you know, how we were going to scale in a way that allowed us to work with multiple clients without getting burned out.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. I I love this. And, you know, I just wanna speak to 2 things that you said. Like, we do, highly retainer based, by the nature of Facebook advertising is, like, people have to hire you for ongoing service. But we also have a launch package, and that is one of our most easy like, if you're listening and your client, love all of our clients. But the easiest is that launch package because there is that parameter. There is that boundary. There is that, hey.
Zach Spuckler:
At 8 weeks, we have to have a conversation about do you wanna continue? Do you want to switch to a retainer? Do you want to come back in 3 months, and let's put it on the books and take a a down payment and bring you in for the next launch if you had a great experience? So I love that you're talking about that, and I think that's something that we need to work on implementing in our business a little bit too. The other thing you said that you really you said it super quick, but I think it's really important is you said I knew we had to put in the hard yards. And I think that that's so key, and so many people kind of, like, not gloss over, but we hear these things like you you know, you even said, like, oh, well, 2 or 3 years in, we started offering packages. And I think it's there's this sweet spot in that 1 to 2 year start where it's like you're just trying things. You're figuring it out. Right? You're gonna listen to podcasts like this, and you may try packages and maybe they don't work for your service or maybe they crush it for your service or you're gonna learn about, you know, copywriting and all these things, and it's like piecing that together. Those are the hard yards, and you still didn't sacrifice what you wanted. Can you touch really quickly? So there was actually 3 things.
Zach Spuckler:
You said one other thing. Were you guys both still in a corporate setting while you started the business, or did you go, like, all in from the jump?
Mayank Malik:
All in. Yeah.
Prerna Malik:
Oh, okay.
Mayank Malik:
Because, because like Pina said, I was really sick. So when I left my job, it was about almost a year of bed rest. So at that time, we just had the the mom blog going on. Yeah. And when I was feeling much better, then, we thought that it was best to give a new business at least a year to see if it's viable. And we thought if within the 1st year, we see that it's gonna replace the income that we are getting from a corporate job or even close to that, then it makes sense to carry on with that. And and luckily, that's what happened, and and we just went on from there.
Zach Spuckler:
I love that. And you said something that I really hope people pick up on, which is you gave it a year. And you didn't just give it a year, but, really, like, for those who are listening, like, a lot of us give things, you know, 6 months or a year, and we're like, it's not working. But, really, there's 2 of you essentially working full time on a business together with a shared vision for 12 months. That is, you know, in some cases, depending on what your time looks like. For some people, that could be a 3 or 4 year period if you're keeping a corporate gig or you're working on the side. And I don't think there's a right or wrong. I was just curious, but I think that's so key for people to hear is, like, you have to give it time.
Zach Spuckler:
And not only did you give it time, but you really had, like, a and I I was in a very similar position when I started my business. You had a head start. Right? So a lot of people, we see the flashy webinars or courses or promotions, and they're like, you can start a business, but you had had a mom blog for 3 years. Right? And so you came in with the experience of how does blogging work? How does social media work? How do all these things work? And I just love that you guys are so open about this because so many people, like, we see, like, you know, oh, I'd like for for example, like, if I was to do my, you know, my my sexy headline, I'd be like, we grow our membership to, you know, a 6 figure recurring membership site in 6 months or less, but that's on the back of 9 years in business. Right? And so it's like so many people love to share the headline, but so few people talk about the journey.
Prerna Malik:
100%. 100%. There are a couple of things that we feel very strongly about. What is, like, when we hear people say, oh, start a business. It's so easy. Quit your day job because it's easy. No. It's not.
Prerna Malik:
You know? Mhmm. Not everyone can do that. No. Like I told you, it's not easy for for us, for example, we had we went all in because, like Manx said, you know, we had to take a call. Would he return to his corporate job, or should we try this? Like, that was, like, the probably the best time we could have tried something because, you know, he'd been away from work for about a year. He would have been starting at, like, the same level that he goes back now or he goes back a year later. So he was like, you know, we and the other thing was we'd we'd pretty much used up all of our savings and, again, didn't have much to lose. So we were like, okay.
Prerna Malik:
Let's, you know, give it give it a shot and see how it goes. The second thing I feel that, you know, a lot of people don't really talk about or highlight that much is, like, it's okay to go at your own pace. It's okay to not chase a constantly moving goalpost of whatever is, you know, the latest quote unquote revenue milestone that's being advertised. So for us, that was very, very clear. Did we, you know are we ambitious? Absolutely. Why do you think we're in business, like, you know, for the 13 years now? Yeah. Yes. We are.
Prerna Malik:
But we're very careful about setting the goals that matter to us. So, you know, the flex is not in who reaches the, you know, x goal the fastest, the flex is, and whether you do it in a way that feels good to you. So yeah.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. I love that because, you know, just to be, like, totally blunt, like, we don't you know, we're not a 7 figure business, and, you know, we have a great listenership. We have a great engagement. We have a thriving membership. And, you know, last year, my husband and I went to Europe for 3 weeks. And we we traveled Europe for 3 weeks, and we went to Universal Studio. And we're going on a cruise later this year, and we're going to visit our friend for a week. I'm taking, you know, essentially, like, a a a very part time schedule to go to Arizona for a week.
Zach Spuckler:
And it's like so many people I love that you're saying this because I think this is a huge conversation our industry doesn't like to have as, you know, I know when probably we you, were a few years before I started. I started in, 2015. I actually started 2013 with my blog, so just a couple years, down the road. But I know, like, when kind of in that time frame, everyone was, like, 6 figures, 6 figures, 6 figure blog, 6 figure this. Now then and then, like, you know, mid 2000s. Now it's 7 figures. And now it's even, like, multi 7 figures, and then the conversation shifts. Now it's, like, a lot of, like, 7 figures with AI, and it's like that that I love that you're talking about that because that goal post is always moving.
Zach Spuckler:
You're always being essentially sold a dream. And in in some sense, your desire is the product, and it's like, the more you can get clear on the fact that, like I've had a lot of mentors say to me, like, well, why don't you want more? Why don't you want more? Why don't you want more? And it's like, it's not that I don't want more, but I'm not willing like, our goal is to generate more revenue. Right? But it's not at the expense of I'm going to Europe for 3 weeks. I'm taking a week off to go visit my friends. You know?
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. Exactly.
Mayank Malik:
Yeah. Absolutely. And Yeah. And I think sometimes people forget that a a big revenue number is awesome to have, but at the end of the year, if you're not keeping a lot of it or at least a decent chunk of it, then it doesn't really make much of a difference. If you're gonna make $1,000,000 and spend 900 k and just keep 100 k, it's better to have a 400 or 500 k business where you can keep 2.50 or 300 k. So
Zach Spuckler:
100%.
Mayank Malik:
So that's why profitability is a bigger driving force for us than revenue. And, if you could really optimize your processes, your services, the way you utilize your time Mhmm. You could keep more. And 5 years or 10 years down the line, that's what's gonna make a difference whether you have enough of a corpus, for all the life goals that you have.
Prerna Malik:
Exactly.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. And I I just love that. And I we I wanna get into your kind of process for streamlining because that that is what it is. Right? Like, that and that's what we learned along the way. It's like, not necessarily like and there's nothing wrong with, like, multiproduct or multiservice businesses. Everybody has to find what works for them. But for us, what we realized was the more we pared down, not necessarily our offerings or our audience or even, like, our our our service, But the ways we presented it, the ways we'd be like, oh, you could do this workshop or that thing or this thing. When it was ultimately, like, the same outcome we were trying to reach for people, that people became clearer on, number 1, like, our market position.
Zach Spuckler:
But, 2, internally, there were a 1000000 moving pieces. So, like, for us, our our agency side of things at least, like, it runs very smooth. Even our membership runs pretty smooth because we know every day the team is gonna log in, like, for the membership. They're gonna log in. They're gonna make a list of things I need to reply to. They're gonna reply to what they can reply to. They're gonna check the retention doc. We're gonna have a weekly check-in on their retention.
Zach Spuckler:
We're gonna have a quarterly launch. And so that system and process, it's like there's less moving pieces for things to get stuck. And so because there's less moving pieces, it's less team time. It's less contracted time. It's more focused time. It's not that we pay people less or that we're not, you know, compensating our team. It's that the time that we're compensating is spent on the high impact activities. And you said something so good, my which I love, because I have this conversation offline all the time.
Zach Spuckler:
I don't think we've ever said it on the podcast is I know personally peers who make 2, 3 times as much as me, but they take home the same at the end of the day. You know? And and so judgment on that. If that's what you wanna do and that's important to you and 7 figures is, like, important, great. There's no judgment. It's just I air on the side of what you said, which is, like, I'd rather make 4.50, 500 a year, pocket 20, 30% of it, put some of it into retirement, and, like, just post here, you know, for a little while until I optimize those systems and processes to a place where we can scale with a similar lifestyle. So can you like, I just I love this conversation. I know it's not quite where we talked about, but I love it. Can you talk really, like, just a little bit about how you were able to you know, we kinda touched on the idea of packages, but, like, how did you get clarity or start to, we love the word online, process size.
Zach Spuckler:
You know, like, how did you start to streamline those processes and packages, so that you were able to, like, scale up in a lifestyle friendly way?
Prerna Malik:
Sure. So for us, when first up, it comes out of the structure of the package. Right? Like, so how are we gonna offer the package? What are we gonna offers? That's kinda where you start with a package or a productized service that you can sell straight off your site. You don't need to get on a sales call. For some of our packages, of course, our high end packages, we do do sales calls still, but it kind of cuts down the proposal side of things a lot, you know, and it's just an easier sell because people can see exactly what they're getting on the site even before they get on the call. They just wanna get on the call to kinda meet you and all of that. So it's much easier. But to kind of go back to you wanna look at what do you wanna offer.
Prerna Malik:
So how we kind of approach it, Zach, is by looking at what is the need or the pain that we're trying to solve, for our clients so that, you know, we know that it's something that would really appeal to them, which is like basic marketing 101. The second thing we look at is skill. So what are the skills that we have that we can bring to the table and give our clients the great return on their investment. In working with us, that's been really huge for us and and a big part of, you know, why, you know, we've had a lot of repeat, repeat projects with the same clients as well. And then the 3rd team we work, we look at and keep in mind is, is speed. Something you know? What is it that we can offer at a, you know, a good speed or at a good turnaround time without compromising on quality, without compromising on the the customer relationship that we're building with our clients. So we look at all 3. And then based on that, we look at, okay, is the package so we have, like, 3 different kinds of packages that we tend to offer.
Prerna Malik:
The first one is more of a narrow package, which just focuses on, like, say, 1 key element. So for instance, our excitingly evergreen, which focuses on evergreen funnel emails, is a very narrow package because it just it's catered to your evergreen funnels. That's it. And it's just the funnel emails. The we have then you could go, you know, you could go really deep, which is like our fully loaded launch copy package, which is goes deep into everything that someone would need for a live launch. It covers everything from their opt in to their collateral content like blog posts and social media. And then we also have, like, packages that go wide, in terms of it covers for instance, we recently launched what we call our fractional copy director package, growth unbottled. So that is where clients get all their copy needs, like unlimited copy requests, and they get a very speedy turnaround time for a flat fee.
Prerna Malik:
So that's basically why it has both copy and strategy. So for strategy, both Mike and I are there, we work on things like launch strategy, file strategy, retention strategy, you know, all kinds of, like, the your overall marketing strategy, but then we also they also get all the possible copy assets that they could possibly need for that. So that's why I can, you know it's really wide because it covers the whole scope. So that's how we look at how we wanna create our packages. Once those packages are created, then it comes down to delivery, which is, you know, how we ensure that we are giving great services, but we are also making, you know, good money at the end of the day.
Zach Spuckler:
I love it. And while you're chatting, I'm I'm actually, like, looking at some of these on your website just for for context. These are like, what I love the most about this is that you are like, even just looking at your website, like, it's very clear what I'm walking away with. Right? So, like, when I look at your, services page, like, you know, it's I'm very easily able to able to, like, at the front end, categorize myself in a sense of, like, what do I need? Is this a launch? Is this evergreen? Is this you know, maybe I'm looking to spend a little less or I just need your brain for a day. Like, it's very clear to me on the front end. Like, I'm able to self identify as the client, where I need to be. Obviously, the copy is just phenomenal. But, like, even like, I'm looking at, like, the VIP day one.
Zach Spuckler:
It's like, which one do I need? This or this? And it's like, here's lit like, exactly what you're going to expect. And I think that comes back to what we talked about earlier, which is, like, having those boundaries and parameters makes the systems process and offering so much simpler. So for someone who's listening, that's like, okay. This is great. I love it. I need to maybe create a package for my service. Maybe I need some clarity around how I'm gonna deliver it, speed, and process, that kind of thing. But can you talk about, like and maybe I'm wrong, but I you feel free to tell me.
Zach Spuckler:
I'm imagining when you started, it wasn't like, oh, I have, like, 10 different packages. Was it like did you start with 1 or 2 packages, either in the copy or the the SMMA business and, like, expand out based on client need and service and contractor bandwidth?
Prerna Malik:
100%. The 1st package for the copy side of things that we launched was fully loaded launch copy. You know? And to just give you some context, when we launched it, you know, we were charging, like, what, $5 for it probably.
Mayank Malik:
Yes.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. And I know. Wild. Right? And right now, it sells anywhere upwards of $20 depending on what a client needs. So, again, these if you go to our site, that's the other thing. You'll always see the pricing is very, very clear.
Zach Spuckler:
Which I love, by the way.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. So it just gives you context. But, you know, it's we did not straight out the gate start at the 20 k.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah.
Prerna Malik:
It's fine. But, yes, we did start with 1 package. And then, again, that's why I said need. You know, we had we found that, oh, clients were asking us for this, and these these are the skills we can add, and this is how we can deliver it fast. So those packages kind of came about. In fact, growth on bottle, the package we recent we launched that last year is not even on the site. Right now, it currently sells through a Google Doc because we sell it through, you know, like, 2 existing clients or folks who know our existing clients. So it's like yeah.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. And you said something there, like, so quick that I wanna point out to people, which is you are selling a high end quality service via a Google Doc. Like, I imagine that's one of your higher ticket offers. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. So here's like, if you guys take one thing away from that little snippet, it's that you like, we think that the I think a lot of people think that, and this is no judgment on these things or people or services. We have some of them, like brand photography, website design, logo, color palette. Like Yeah.
Zach Spuckler:
Those things, I'm not saying they don't matter, but it's like when it gets down to it, people want results. People want people they can trust, and people wanna know what you're gonna give them. We don't eat like, we don't have our prices listed on our website simply because we do everything referral based. But if someone reaches out, we send a pricing doc before we even get on a call. Like, if someone's like, hey. I'm interested. We're like, great. Here's our pricing.
Zach Spuckler:
Let me know if you'd even like to continue the conversation, because our agency, we only have a limited number of clients. We have a lot of website traffic, which is a little little different. But, you know, it's like, I love that you guys are doing all these little things that it's like you the other thing you said was, like, our our package goes for 20 k plus. And the thing that I love the most is there wasn't even, like, a flinch, a hesitation. It wasn't like, yeah. You know, we're kind of expensive, or we're on the high end side. Because for some people, you're not, and for some people, you are, and that's totally fine. And you put them right on your website.
Zach Spuckler:
It's like it's almost against the conventional norm. It's like, just book calls. Just book calls. Just get as many people as you can. And so I imagine because you put all these systems into place, because you have clarity on what you want out of the business, so you know how many spots you wanna sell, Because you have clarity on the packages, you know what you offer, you know what you don't, and you know when someone is like, well, can you do this? You're like, absolutely. And that's actually gonna be this package. You can charge your your time and money valuably. And then you also are, like, not getting on the phone with people who are like, oh, I didn't know it was gonna be that much.
Zach Spuckler:
Like, but let let me think about it for a month. Like, people are coming in prepped and prepared, and so you've really got this beautiful process that is like it serves you. It serves the clients. And at the end of the day, you I would imagine feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But I would imagine you're not having, like, what we call, like, uncomfortable sales conversations. You're getting to meet excited clients who are like, I know the price. I know I'm interested. Now I wanna get to know you, and I want you to get to know me.
Prerna Malik:
Yes. 100%. So for us, it's very, very clear. Like, financial stewardship's been a big part of our business right from the start, and, you know, transparency and pricing is one of the ways. And Yep. Also how we price our packages, and mine can get into that in a bit. But that's it kinda just drives that. And it just makes it so much easier.
Prerna Malik:
And like I said, with a lot of folks, you know, sometimes they just fill the form, make the payment. So and yeah, and buy the package straight off. So it's, you know, it's that simple. But sales conversations and just getting on a call and getting the prices just I know it's right for some people, and that's great. It's just something that doesn't work for us for a variety of reasons. Like I said, financial transparency is one thing, but the other thing is also that we are in India, and we are in, like, a very different time zone. So sometimes, you know, just getting on calls, like, the you like how you get those DMs, like, saying, oh, I can get you, like, 20, 30 sales calls a month. Like, that is, like, stuff of my time.
Prerna Malik:
Nightmare.
Zach Spuckler:
Like, that's not my why.
Prerna Malik:
Exactly. So so no. No. But, but, yeah, for us, you know, that's the other side of things. It's like, it's more from also, again, the same thing. We wanted to kind of make it work for us and also work for our clients. So this is one of the ways we do it.
Zach Spuckler:
I love that. I love that. And, you know, the other thing that stuck out for me is, like I wanna point this out is, like, you you said earlier, like, we didn't just start at 20 k. Right? And I think so many people this is, again, I keep saying this, but, like, it's not a judgment because we hear these things from people. It's like, be high ticket be high ticket. The best way to make money is to just be high ticket. And there's tons of business models. And, like, a lot of my clients listening, or or students are just pod me.
Zach Spuckler:
Podcast listeners might be like, Zach, you don't like, I don't really sell anything other than 1 on 1 coaching that's over, like, $300 unless you counter membership. For a year, it's 760 or 6.70, 7 doesn't matter. It's around $700, for the year. And it's like and but you could argue, like, that's really $67 a month. So we tend to dabble in the lower end, but we also have higher ticket services and and higher ticket offers. And I don't think there's anything wrong with either. What I love so much that I hope people are taking away is, like, you have to do what's in alignment for you, your values, your pricing, you know, whatever. Like, it can feel good, but you also have if anyone goes to your website, the, content bistro.com, it's like you have, I mean, just a litany of testimonials, I mean, from people that people will recognize.
Zach Spuckler:
And, I don't I don't share that just to blow smoke. I I share that because it's like you also grew your pricing and your process with your experience and your proof of concept. Right? And I think so many people are kind of being fed this line, and feel free to disagree. But I think a lot of people are being fed this, like, oh, just go high ticket, and they have no experience, no client roster, no branding, no website, which I know we just said wasn't important. But as you charge more, it becomes important. And they're like, well, I'll just charge $3,000 for my package. And it's like, what's your copy experience, or what's your ads experience? Now, like, why I took this great course that told me I should charge $3,000 because it's worth my time. So can you maybe touch a little bit on how you'd like that pricing process? Like because you've had that transparency.
Zach Spuckler:
Like, how have you started somewhere where it's like it's it fit your goals, it fit your your experience, but then it also has been able to scale with you?
Mayank Malik:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think the early years, we what we didn't have was a lot of data around our business. So that is something that we've learned over the years. So we are anal about all data in our business, I'd say, for the last 5 to 7 years. So whether it's the amount of time that goes into any product or service, what what's the sort of profitability that we are getting from a particular package, services in general, consulting, our programs. So we have all that data. But initially, I would say pricing was pretty simple.
Mayank Malik:
We we looked at what the range was in in terms of pricing for that particular service. And we thought that we've had maybe a few years of experience, so it's okay to be maybe the 50th or the 60th percentile. So we are somewhere in the middle. Not extremely high ticket, but not too low as well. But the problem with that was that it wasn't really aligned with our revenue goal. So if we were gunning for, say, about 300 k at the end of the year, we worked 40 hours, 45 hours. We were still not hitting that number. So that's when it sort of dawned upon us that you have to price for profitability.
Mayank Malik:
Mhmm. And that's when we started tracking numbers and dug deep at the end of 1st year when when we had a lot of numbers in the business. So so we realized that we have to have something that we now call as our internal hourly rate, because that then sort of tells you that if you work for so many hours at the this particular ALI rate, you can forecast a particular revenue number. So it's totally internal. It's it's how we go about, pricing a package. So so very simply put, say for instance, if you're looking at $1,000 an hour and we know that this package is gonna take us, say, about 8 hours. All told, any additional expenses that go in there, maybe for contractors or anything else. So it's 8,000 on top of that, whatever goes to contractors.
Mayank Malik:
And that's how the package price is is done. As far as looking at the internal hourly rate, we obviously have had a few iterations now, but we start with the year end goal that we have. So, like, at the end of 2022, we were looking at a goal for 23 to be around 600 k. So so we realize that all the hours that go in the business do not produce revenue for you. Sometimes you're putting time into marketing, but unless that converts, that time is gone. That's not brought in any revenue. So so when you're delivering services, against the package price or a custom package, that's money coming into the business. If somebody is advertising with you, that's money coming into the business.
Mayank Malik:
Any marketing activities when they convert. So if you've been on Instagram for 30 days and you get 2 leads from there, then there's some conversion for the time that you put in Instagram. Right? But say, for instance, you don't get any conversions that month, that is just time gone into marketing, which hasn't really created any revenue for you.
Zach Spuckler:
Yep.
Mayank Malik:
So we realized that maybe 40%, 50% of the hours that we put in the business actually bring in the revenue. Rest of the hours are either going into marketing or going into different aspects of the business, which are equally important. But right then and there, it's not attributing to increase in revenue. So that is how we sort of looked at the internal hourly rate. We said, okay. If we have to get to 600 k, if it's $1,000 an hours, that means that you have to have 600 hours of pure revenue generation. Mhmm. Because we were tracking data really closely, we saw that about close to 25 to 30% of the hours that he put in the business was creating revenue.
Mayank Malik:
Everything else was helping build the business, market the business, come up with new offers, and all of that stuff. So so that sort of told us that between the 2 of us, if we put in about 23 to 25 hours a week Mhmm. That gives us about 50 hours. We work 40 to 43 weeks in the year. So that gives us when you sort of multiply that number with the hourly rate, you know you get a 600 k. So so we thought that was a logical way to approach it. It's been working for us for for the last few years. Without that, in the past, we've always had a struggle because then you don't know whether a 20 k package is more profitable or a 5 k package is more profitable.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. Yeah. I I love that. And I was, as you were talking, I was, like, plugging it into a calculator. I was like, oh, wow. This is super fun. This is you you said 2 things, that I I just wanna highlight. 1, you said we we basically, like and I people are so adamantly against this, and I don't know why.
Zach Spuckler:
You did a market analysis, and it doesn't have to be like this wild 30 tab deep spreadsheet. You said, we looked at the average prices in the market. We placed ourselves to the middle based on the experience, and then we did it for a year and said, what are the results? What are the testimonials? What are the feedback? And where do we need to pivot for profitability? And I think so many people. I work with a lot of clients, privately who were like, well, I'm charging, you know, $2,000. And I'm like, well, why? And they're like, well, that's what feels good. Right? Or or my my mentor told me 2 k is the price point or, you know, I'm in a coaching program, and they said charge 5 k for your services to start. And it's like you've you've gotta realize there there's, you know, inherently or at the surface, there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is it's based on arbitrary numbers.
Zach Spuckler:
And especially in the online space, we don't look at, like you know, we hear things like, oh, you can be premium. You can be lux. You can be top end if you want to. But at the end of the day, there is and I just talked to a client about this the other day. There is a, a supply demand curve in your market. There is a, you know depending on who your market is, there is a pricing point that will your market will not bear. So, like, you guys are, based on the testimonies I'm seeing, are working with people doing, you know, 6 multiple 6, 7 figures who have, obviously, the budget to invest in a copywriter and have team structure and have people that you probably work with on their team. Right? And so that puts you in a different market than someone who is, say, working with an entrepreneur who's like, I'm on my 3rd launch.
Zach Spuckler:
Right? Right? And so it's knowing, 1, your data, which I love. My I'm such a data nerd. I have, like I actually have about, like, 3 forms and a spreadsheet open and, like, right now in the back. So I'm all with you on the data and understanding your market to start that data and then making decisions based on your business and who you serve. And I just think that's so beautiful because so many people say, well, I'm gonna charge this because that's my worth, or I'm gonna charge this because feels good. And it's like, no. Charge what the market can bear, and then get your, like, your hands dirty, build your marketing or your business chops, and then start figuring out where in that market you can niche down if you wanna become Lux or maybe you don't based on your goals. And that's okay too.
Mayank Malik:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's such a great point that you highlight about knowing your market. In fact, for us, we have 3 separate audiences within our business. Mhmm. So on the other side of things, we can, charge a certain number.
Mayank Malik:
On our coaching consulting side, the number is very different. Yes. For our program, the audience that we go out to, the number is totally different. Yeah. So so even the subsections within your audience, you have to see, what the market is willing to pay and is pay a price, for what you're offering.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. I love that because we we do the same thing. Right? We have our, membership side of our audience, which is $67 a month, and then we have, like, a subset of our audience that's, like, between the membership and between full service agency management, and we do, a 3 hour consult session with them that's, like, literally twice the price of a year in the membership. Right? It's $1500. So it's like we charge, like, to meet for 3 hours at a much higher rate, but and we're also having really high level conversations. We're setting up Facebook ads. We're writing copy. We're developing images.
Zach Spuckler:
Whereas at $67, we are very, time leveraged. Right? So, like but if I'm not time leveraged, my rate has to go up. And I think that's kinda what you guys were talking about too is, like, we have to look at that number. Like, for me, that call, even though it's 3 hours, it really takes about 4 hours with follow-up and prep and email. So we know we're making about, you know, 400 an hour. For me, I it's a little less than I'd like to charge, but I also build really strong relationships on those calls. We typically get a retainer or referral off them, so I take you know? It's like but, again, that comes back to what you were saying, Mike. It's like it's knowing that data.
Zach Spuckler:
It's knowing that these calls lead to referrals or long term retainers or higher lifetime client value. We have people that take those calls and then they hire us multiple times. And so it's like knowing that also serves us to say, like, okay. Maybe we for us, we should do the price a little lower than some of our market because it makes it a no brainer. Right? But it ultimately brings more revenue on the back. So I I this is such a good conversation. Oh my gosh. I realize I'm I'm running a little long with you guys, but I love this conversation.
Zach Spuckler:
For people, like, first off, before we kinda start to wind down, is there anything for someone who's listening that you're like, okay. If you're thinking about, like, scaling a service or a product or a course or really anything, like, is there any and I know this is a really broad question, so feel free to tell me if you want more clarification. But is there any, like, words of wisdom just based on what we've talked about today or any, like, it's really important you think about this type thing that you would say to someone who's like, okay. I'm fully bought in. I need to, like, systemize, maybe package or productize whether that's a course or a service. It's like, I need those boundaries. I need that pricing. For someone listening, like, what is the big thing that they can, like, start doing, or do right now to, like, kind of align themselves with their market a little more efficiently?
Prerna Malik:
I would say it's essentially getting really, really clear on what it is that you can offer with the VEL, but also reasonably fast. So I'm, it's gonna sound like I'm bragging, but I'm shockingly fast when it comes to writing copy. Like I
Zach Spuckler:
love it. Not bragging. It's good.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. But it's also and I keep reminding people that I have been writing for a very, very, very, very long time, and I have you know, like, I touched hype. I'm, you know, I'm we're always investing in upskilling, so my skills are always sharp. I'm you know, we're always staying relevant. So but we're getting really clear on what it is that you can offer really well and also reasonably fast would help you look at, you know, okay. This is the gap that I'm gonna fill with the package service. And also knowing why do you wanna do it. For us, our wise is, you know, was very, very clear because we wanted to scale and we wanted to scale in a way that didn't burn us out and, you know, led to a business that we really enjoyed running day in and day out.
Prerna Malik:
So for us, that's that's really important. So once you have that in place, that's really great. And I think from the from a pricing point of view, getting clear on your internal hourly rate. So you know? And getting clear on what's your goal. Like, forget what the market says. What is it for us we know? What are we saving towards? We we like you, Zach. We love traveling. Like, 2022, we did, like, 11 days in London.
Prerna Malik:
March this year, we are taking our daughter to Singapore for the Taylor Swift era tour.
Zach Spuckler:
Oh, I'm so jealous. It's really good.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. It's our it's our 16th birthday present. So we love doing all of that. Right? And so for us, just knowing, you know, what are our goals regardless of what is fashionable from a revenue point of view in the market. You wanna look at what do you want and just kind of reverse engineer from there. Those are the things I would say are really important. You got anything to add to that? Yep. Yep.
Prerna Malik:
Yep.
Mayank Malik:
Yep. Yep. I think I'll just, maybe give another perspective on when when you're looking to do something fast, you don't wanna get into a situation you feel burnt out.
Prerna Malik:
Yes.
Mayank Malik:
So you don't wanna take so many clients or packages on that you feel I could do this fast, but 3 months down the line, you feel you're burnt out. Mhmm. Mhmm. That is why we sort of, put in a lot of time and effort in planning our capacity. Mhmm. Also knowing what part of the year are we in because we know, for instance, Jan, Feb, and March, if we have additional work, we are totally happy with that. Yeah. Summer is slightly slower for us, so our capacity looks way different.
Mayank Malik:
And in the year, it's way different. So you do wanna do something really fast, but you wanna see how much is your capacity spread across the year, what's the season of life that you're in, and then plan accordingly.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.
Zach Spuckler:
I think that's so good. And you're both making such great points that it's like the the thing that is, like, for me, the overarching message of our of our time together is, like, create not just products or systems or processes, but create the business that serves what you wanna do. And it's like Got it. We get fed by whatever you choose, the media, Facebook ads, our market, what you should want. And, admittedly, like, especially in my my mid twenties, early twenties, like, I fell prey to a lot of that. You know? I I bought the Chanel handbag because I was like, oh, this is gonna be so luxe, and what an experience. And, you know, now I'm like, you know, it's not that I don't care for certain finer things in life. I love my 1st class airline seats.
Zach Spuckler:
But it's like I've also learned, like but that is something I I actually care about. Right? It's not something that someone told me I should care about. I'm not sitting in 1st class because I think it's gonna impress somebody else. I'm sitting in 1st class because I am not a petite man, and I like my extra leg room. You know? So it's like knowing those things about yourself. Like, that is it's like we have to start making decisions from, like, as, like, Denise Duffield Thomas. I think we're we might even be mutual Yes. Friends with her.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. She talks about it. Like, what is that first class life? And for some people, a 1st class life is, like, a 100 k in profit and a 300 k business, and that's fine. Like, that's the conversation that I love that we're having.
Prerna Malik:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Wonderful. That's so important.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. So before we start to wrap up, I would love, if you could share a little bit, like so anyone who's enjoyed this conversation, I do wanna, like, throw this out there. You guys are phenomenal copywriters. I know we didn't necessarily talk copy too much today. We may have to have you back on the show to talk some copy stuff later. But I would love for those who, like, really resonate with this conversation. I know you have, some courses, and you have an incredible newsletter that really talks about a lot of like this. You have a, 6 month coaching and mentorship program, that is, like, really around intentional profitability.
Zach Spuckler:
I I was really excited to have you bring that up because I saw it on your website, and I was like, oh, this is gonna be so good. But for those who are, like, interested in, like, staying connected to you guys, learning more, tell us all the things. Be totally shameless. Where can we follow you? What website should we be at? Where do we need to opt in? What do we need to buy? Like, tell us all the things.
Prerna Malik:
Well, thank you so much. Alright. So our website is officecontentbistro.com, and we'd love for you to join our newsletter. At contentbistro.com/newsletter. Very straightforward. And most importantly, we'd love to connect with you on Instagram because that is where we tend to hang out the most and have the most fun with as well. So if you're listening to this, we'd love for you to take a screenshot, tag Zach and us so that we know that you listen and we can, you know, yeah, just get to know you better. That's yeah.
Prerna Malik:
That will be great.
Zach Spuckler:
Yeah. I love it. Perfect. Well, we'll link those up in the show notes. Again, it's contentbistro.com/newsletter. You are listening to this. You all know I do not have a 1000000 guests. I do not bring a ton of guests on the show.
Zach Spuckler:
I only bring good people who I really recommend. So if you're listening to this and you got any value, I would say, please go check out the newsletter, contentbistro.com/newsletter - We'll link it up in the show notes. Herna, Mayank, thank you so much for being here today. What an incredible conversation. It's not what we talked about. I know. But I really appreciate you guys, and thank you so much for being on today.
Prerna Malik:
Thank you so much for inviting us.
Mayank Malik:
Thanks so much for having us, Zach. It was a lot of fun.
Zach Spuckler:
Alright. So there you have it, the masterminds behind Content Bistro. I mean, I am so stoked about this interview. I hope you just got so much out of it because, you know, we talked about business models and transparent pricing and all kinds of things. But, again, I mentioned at the beginning of the show, and I wanna mention it again. For me, the big win from this episode was intentional profitability. It's about making a business on your terms. And the cool thing about it is I'm actually recording this outro from, Gilbert, Arizona, the Phoenix area, and that's because I'm traveling right now.
Zach Spuckler:
I'm out here seeing a a good friend of ours that was at, some really awesome events in my life that I've got to know, and and I just wanted to share with you that, like, this is possible. You know? You can have intentional profitability. I'm doing a little bit of work in the mornings, and then we're having, you know, pool days and, outings and dinners, and and that's possible for you too. And so if you enjoy this episode, I wanna encourage you to check out contentbistro.com/newsletter. We will link everything up in the show notes over at heartsoulhustle.com/nyap075. Again, that's heartsoulhustle.com/nyap075 for Not Your Average podcast, episode number 75. I hope you got mad value from today. And as always, until next time, stay not so
